The right to protest, Cameron, and a 12 year old boy.

Read this link

Meet Nicky Wishart. Nicky attends school in Eynsham, Oxfordshire. Eynsham is near Witney, in David Cameron’s constituency, making Nicky one of Cameron’s constituents. Nicky attends a youth centre, presumably in the same district. That youth centre is due to close next year, due to budget cuts.

Now, we are often told that the young are not political enough. That they do not vote enough. That they are disillusioned and disenfranchised before they are able to become part of the political system. Nicky, to his credit, gave the lie to this, and organised a peaceful picket of Cameron’s constituency office. Note: not his home, his car, his kids’ schools, but the place from which the business of democracy in his constituency is carried out. Further note: picket. Not riot. Not direct action, or anything else one could read as a euphemism, a picket.

Now, somehow, Thames Valley Police found out about this. I do not know how, and it is relatively unimportant. A public demonstration was being organised, and it is right and proper that they found out, as they can then effectively police said demonstration. Let’s assume someone knew this, and told them about the demo.

What concerns me is what happened next. The story I have linked to states that it was anti terror police that visited the school. I suspect that this is not the case. Most areas have a designated schools officer, who will cover a couple of schools, and deal with what happens in those schools. This normally means bullying that has become sufficient to become a legal (rather than educational) issue, the sort of thefts that happen in schools, and behavioural issues which are again serious enough to warrant police involvement. I am happy to accept Thames Valley Police’s statement that it was one of these officers that became involved, as it seems the most likely explanation. Occam’s Razor and all that.

Whichever flavour of Police officer it was, there was a warrant card and a uniform. They spoke to the school, and Nicky was taken out of class. This is not in dispute. Nicky was taken to speak to the Police officer, in the presence of the head of the school. Again, not in dispute. A member of staff called Nicky’s parents, explained that the police had arrived, and wanted to speak to Nicky about something on Facebook. Thames Valley Police have not disputed this either.

Now, this is where accounts diverge. Thames Valley Police told the Guardian that: “On Tuesday 7 December, our schools officer for west Oxfordshire attended the school in Eynsham and spoke to a 12-year-old boy in the company of the pupil’s head of year, about a planned protest. This was not with the intention of dissuading him from organising it, but to obtain information regarding the protest to ensure his and others’ safety. As with any demonstration, we always aim to facilitate a peaceful protest.”

Nicky gives a slightly different account. He states that he was told that “if a riot breaks out we will arrest people and if anything happens you will get arrested because you are the organiser.” The officer apparently had more information for Nicky: “He said even if I didn’t turn up I would be arrested and he also said that if David Cameron was in, his armed officers will be there ‘so if anything out of line happens …’ and then he stopped.”

Now, there are lots of points to consider here. Was it right that the Police spoke to Nicky? Well, yes. It would have been right to approach him to say “We understand you’re planning a protest. Tell us what the plans are, and we can work with you to ensure that a peaceful protest ensues.” However, Nicky is 12. And had done nothing wrong. This being the case, Nicky’s mother, who lives 10 minutes from the school, should have been contacted. This isn’t a kid that’s been throwing rocks through windows. If it were, and he were in trouble, she would have been contacted. To not do so before speaking to him gives the impression (valid or not) that you are trying to catch him on the hop. If Police forces are trying to outfox schoolkids, we’re in trouble as a nation. Now I’m sure that’s not the motivation. I’m sure someone higher up gave them a talk without tea and biscuits, and demanded instant info on the demonstration. I’m sure this lead to not contacting his parents before speaking to him. This doesn’t make it ok. It just means you had a slightly less nefarious reason for cocking up. This information should not have been relayed by the school.

Now, the next bit is in dispute. Thames Valley Police say they had no intention of dissuading Nicky from protesting. But Nicky says he was told “if a riot breaks out we will arrest people and if anything happens you will get arrested because you are the organiser.”

Got that? You started it, you get nicked. Fair enough, right? No. Not at all. Not even a bit. If I organise a chess club meeting, and the top chess player shoves a pawn into someone’s eye because they lost, I don’t get nicked for assault. BECAUSE I DIDN’T BLOODY DO IT. Organising something does not, in any way, make you responsible for everything that happens there. Football club directors don’t spend the night in the cells when hooligans kick off. It’s a very basic point of law that you are responsible for your own actions, not another’s. Now, I know you can point to offences such as incitement, coercion, conspiracy etc. That’s a mistake. Those offences are still and action. The offender still had to coerce, conspire, incite. There is no evidence whatsoever that Nicky did any of these things. If he were arrested for the actions of others, someone would have some explaining to do.

Nicky also states that he was told that he could still be arrested if these things happened, but he wasn’t there. Utter, utter nonsense. If I organise a football match, and am unable to attend myself, I’m not liable to prosecution if the goalkeeper beats the star striker with a corner flag. Are Thames Valley Police stating that it is Nicky’s job, as organiser, to police the demo? Is a 12 year old boy more accountable for the actions of those attending a demonstration than trained, equipped, well backed Police officers? No. It’s a ludicrous suggestion, and one that can only be intended to intimidate.

And now we come to the finest part. The mention of armed police officers. There is a way we could see this as reasonable. Perhaps if the officer said to the organiser something like the following:

“Look, this demo is all well and good. I understand you have your valid reasons for it. I understand you intend no violence. But do remember this is the occasional place of work of the leader of our country. Please ensure that those attending know that if they try anything like breaking in the back door, the man out the back with an MP5 might not know it’s a protesting schoolboy. I want no tragic accidents here.”

However, what Nicky describes is not that. His description sounds more like a hired heavy walking round a china shop advising that “it would be a shame if something were to happen.”

Certain issues must be borne in mind. The story hit the Guardian website at 1749 today. There is time for further developments. We must consider the following:

There are discrepancies between the accounts of Nicky and Thames Valley Police. The school might be able to come out and say which they heard, but at the moment, they say they are “dealing with [the matter] internally”. I find that disappointing, as much light could be shed by their account.

Nicky is a scared 12 year old, normally confident, but terrified because the Police are speaking to him about public demonstrations. His account could well be slightly exaggerated, through no fault of his own. However, we find ourselves returning to that original mistake of not asking his mother to attend. If she had, an adult recollection of the meeting might be available, however biased. I keep returning to this with almost every point, as it is fundamental. I see no reason, at the moment, that Thames Valley Police did not contact her and request her attendance at the meeting.

I would like to know the following:

  1. Was Nicky really told he would be liable for arrest if criminal acts were carried out by the attendees? Was he told this was true even if he didn’t attend?
  2. Did the officer warn Nicky about firearms officers in the way he described?
  3. What information did Thames Valley Police seek about the demonstration to arrange the meeting with Nicky? Was this obtained?
  4. Most importantly, above all, why was Nicky’s mother not contacted? This thread runs through everything that is said on the subject after that. It is, in my view, a basic omission that massively undermines anything the force might have to say on the subject in future.

You have a right to protest. Do not be talked out of it, but conduct it in a peaceful and contructive manner. If you are requested to attend a police meeting, take a witness. Or a tape recorder. Or both.

And you are not, in any circumstances, liable to be prosecuted because someone else did something you knew nothing about and did not suspect, even if it happened at an event you organised.

Nicky, you seem like a kid I can respect. Don’t let this incident put you off, because it sounds, at first hearing, like you had it planned right.

Thames Valley Police press office is, understandably, closed at this time.

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28 Responses to The right to protest, Cameron, and a 12 year old boy.

  1. Pragmatist says:

    A fabulous post, thanks. Economic circumstances are bringing a whole new group of people into contact with the authorities. Both sets of people are clearly struggling to understand each other’s purpose and motives. Let’s hope the criminal authorities remain focused on detecting and preventing real crime, rather than mere dissent. Discussions like this must help.

    • widnesboy says:

      ‘m soak says:
      December 11, 2010 at 12:55 pm
      Isn’t there a law against threatening people in this way?’

      There is also a law against police beating an innocent bystander to death for happening to walk past a demonstration- doesn’t mean it will be applied.

  2. m soak says:

    Isn’t there a law against threatening people in this way?

  3. Dominic says:

    This incident does not surprise me.
    Two weeks ago, the same Police Force (Thames Valley Police) rang our home late at night, demanding that our son attend the police station on the following day to answer a serious charge. They would not say what crime they were investigating, or when it took place.
    Our son is autistic. We told the police this.
    We all spent a sleepless night.
    The following day, his mother took him to the station where he was arrested, searched, fingerprinted and interrogated about a serious sexual assault.
    The alleged assault took place at a time when our son – who is just 16 – was in school AS THE SCHOOL WERE ABLE TO CONFIRM.
    So, he clearly was not the offender, as several dozen people could confirm. He did not fit the description either, nor does he possess a bike, which the criminal was riding.
    However, he is currently out on bail and has not been released from the arrest conditions.
    The police actions in this instance are not only heavy handed, intimidating and grossly unfair – they are a complete waste of time and public money. The whole incident has cast an enormous shadow over our family for a fortnight, and there is no indication that it will be resolved at all soon.
    Quis custodiet?

  4. helen morgan says:

    I thought that you had to be 13 to have a FB account?

    For a while now parents have been excluded by the authorities from dealings with their children. Where do you stand on the giving of contraception to under age girls without parental involvement.

    I find this article rather contradictory. Either this child is old enough and responsible enough to organise a demo without his mummy or he isn’t and shouldn’t therefore be doing it. Sounds like a spoiled brat who is used to getting his own way.

    • Giving an under-age girl contraceptive protection really isn’t the same as police turning up to threaten a child.

      And perhaps his mother was aware of the picket being organised. Nothing in the article makes him sound like a spoiled brat, but you certainly sound like you have an agenda.

    • Colin says:

      This is a very serious situation. Please try not to be so flippant.

  5. phil clowes says:

    The point is not whether the boy is a brat, or old enough to organise anything. The question arises, were the police correct to deal with the situation in such a heavy-handed and intimidatory manner?

  6. Liz says:

    I like this! (Referred by a RT on Twitter.

  7. les osborne says:

    everyone should know about this,,,,it’s just like the way maggie smashed the unions by making shop stewards responsible for loss of profits ,,are they gonna make protest organiser’s responsible for any damage or trouble caused,,it had to be thames valley police the bullies of england,, I’m sure they’re trained to be the new gestapo,,its stinks of third reich……….

    • Steven Pringle says:

      In 1930s Germany it was the brown shirts who organised the riots. So I could say that a number of young people who do not show their faces and people who put shit through the letterbox of the deputy Prime Minister remind me of forces of oppression.

      • ddgrant says:

        Unfortunately for your ‘theory’, it was reported in The Guardian newspaper that neo-Nazi elements were present on Thursday and were violently attacking homebound protesters late that night. Appeals to Police merited only chuckles much as they did in 1930s Germany. I have no doubt that we shall see more of this, indeed much as we do in current Germany where every day neo-Nazi elements are given ever more succour by the governing circles especially by the latter’s encouragement of anti-immigrant sentiment.

        Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. George Orwell, 1984

  8. Simba says:

    I was once kept in a confined room at school for nearly 4 hours while the police and deputy headmaster searched my locker. my mother was not informed of this, even though i could hear her talking in reception just a room or two away. in retrospect i should have just spoken up but i was intent on following the rules and this was my downfall. at the time i was 15 years old. the police nor the deputyhead took no notice of my rights as the dep head had a determined agenda.

    i am sorry to say i have encountered the police more than i would like to and every time they have not shown themselves to be the good role models it seems common sense that they should strive to be.

  9. pajh says:

    The Graun article suggests that the Head of Year was present at the meeting. Perhaps he/she could be contacted through the school?

  10. pat says:

    Two interesting accounts of what happened. If the interview / chat / whatever you want to call it was recorded there would have been no dispute. But then people would have objected to that no doubt.

    Just one point. I thought a picket was when those attending tried to stop people entering a building. Different from a demonstration. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for the child to attend his Mp’s surgery with his mother for her to put forward his views or collect signatures for a petition and hand those in.

    • Most of the definitions I have found state that a picket is a static protest, often with an intention to prevent access. I think “often” is quite important, as it’s obviously not an essential part of the definition.

  11. Jake says:

    While I’m not justifying TVP’s actions, I would point out that a friend of mine (aged 17) arranged the first day of student protesting in Colchester a few weeks ago. Essex Police told him, as Nicky was told, that he would be arrested if any violence occurred. Apparently this is nation-wide policy …

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  13. kaykay says:

    wow. i am still finding it strange how – admittedly very violent – kids are arrested, put to trial and into prison in the UK. now this said, the story as it is should still raise an uproar of parents and ANYBODY who believes in democracy ie freedom of speech, protest etc.
    i’m not very connected with the British media but this would be interesting to follow..
    i think the school is being irresponsible to NOT call the mum, but then coward out of a public statement. that’s just so wrong. now we depend on the reports of police who will be careful to make it look reasonable and justified and the view of Nicky, who would be rather impressible and upset about the whole thing. great.
    (oh, and if people please get out their history books and just stop with the Nazi comparisons, it just never fits. mktx)

    • ddgrant says:

      Are there any history books that you would particularly recommend on the history of 1930s Germany, preferably ones which you yourself have read?

  14. Morag says:

    Thank you for this balanced reaction to the event, which I was looking for last night after one of my friends had linked the Guardian article in horror. When I had read it, the first thing which struck me was the fact that we only had Nicky’s views of it. And 12 year old boys aren’t always entirely unbiased in their views of what happened, are they?

    It is entirely possible that the police pointed out to him that because of the nature of the constituency (ie David Cameron’s), they would be armed and react quickly if things got out of hand. They would be wrong not to do so.

    I believe the police first found out about the event because it was being organised on Facebook – and they know from recent first hand experience that Facebook is an extremely efficient way for troublemakers to gatecrash such events, resulting in guaranteed violence.

    • Sarah Arrow says:

      Yes, my horror that a boy has been threatened and held responsible for the actions of others. I find it utterly repellent that a child can be questioned without a parent present.
      I find it repellent that the police behave in this way. Have you tied to report a crime lately? No interest if your car is stolen, or if people threaten you on your doorstep but they have the resources to send someone round to have a ‘word’ at school about children picketing. Yes, there may be violence it just seems very heavy handed and threatening to me.

    • ddgrant says:

      “And 12 year old boys aren’t always entirely unbiased in their views of what happened, are they?”

      And adult police representatives are…

      “It is entirely possible that the police pointed out to him that because of the nature of the constituency (ie David Cameron’s), they would be armed and react quickly if things got out of hand. They would be wrong not to do so.”

      But not in the case of HRH The Prince of Wales…

      “I believe the police first found out about the event because it was being organised on Facebook – and they know from recent first hand experience that Facebook is an extremely efficient way for troublemakers to gatecrash such events, resulting in guaranteed violence.”

      You seem to know an awful lot about the inner workings of police intelligence…

  15. Matt Wardman says:

    Can I tie this in with the national picture.

    Given that protests in London which are being billed by their proponents as involving a lot of “schoolchildren” are turning out to be quite violent, with significant numbers of people “going equipped” with, for example snooker balls, flares, fireworks and flash-bangs, I have more sympathy than usual for a stern response at this time.

    Yes, there are two groups failing to understand each other, but the context is confused between students/pupils wanting to protest and militant groups trying to turn these protestors away from traditional politics and into cannon fodder for their own agendas. For references on that, refer to the debates amongst groups at organising conferences over the last 12 months, to the political affiliations of the leaders, and to their stonewalling when asked about violence.

    The place to start now is surely with proper policing of the miltant core, and with high profile leaders of demonstrations being held to account in the media.

    I have some issues with the police approach here, but it seems to me that leaders of demonstrations *are* responsible for the actions they facilitate – or fail to prevent, at least morally if not legally. And I’m quite surprised if there is no legal responsibility.

    The legal point really interests me. Do stewards and leaders of demonstrations have no responsibility for reporting crime or intended crime?

    • The post isn’t about the London protests, so I’m not passing comment there. With regard to a person’s obligation to report, this would only be an issue if there was any indication that the organiser knew that an offence was being planned. There is nothing in what is currently known to suggest that this is the case.

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